Curse

Drege_Icebow · Jun 20, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

I didn't miss it. Someone else claimed in another post that needling shot is bad against high armor. I was merely correcting.

Amy Awien · Jun 20, 2010, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Aw, alright, I missed that.

Mintha Syl · Jun 20, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

After reading this all for a long time I'll add my poor opinion.
It's true that bow skills are not so great - you all proved decent examples of effective builds but in my opinion they can never be as much powerful as other weapons skills.
But I still consider the bow a great weapon. As the ones before me said, staying at far range, switching targets asap (how I hate playing melees for these two things, even if they deal more dmg!!) is a great advantage. You don't have to run to targets, you can stay out of their attacks range, you don't lose time engaging but use it to deal dmg or whatever, you can greatly use terrain at your advantage and you have a perfect visual of the battle in its whole, from your comfortable point of view. And you can kill certain foes without them even noticing it.

Ugh · Jun 20, 2010, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Er infuuzers will frequently be hangin around at or under 50% in combat, and BUH also procs from friendly spirits ^ its far from difficult to make buh last double it normal duration and frequently outlast it recharge.

I don't use ERs much, but from what I've seen, they're usually jumping around from < to > 50% quite often, so timing that seems difficult.

And are you sure allied spirits count? The wiki says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

While the skill says allies, summoned creatures do not count in the calculation.

And spirits count as summoned creatures. If it's wrong, someone needs to fix that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drege_Icebow

I didn't miss it. Someone else claimed in another post that needling shot is bad against high armor. I was merely correcting.

Actually I said it was bad in WiK because everything has nonridiculous armor (foes have the same armor in NM and HM there), so its armor-ignoring properties are less beneficial.

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Prepared shot with expert's focus in conjunction with Penetrating attack and Sundering attack owns. Most of what you critiqued is valid, with the exception of BuH for reasons already mentioned. The build I was using was by no means optimal for extended DPS, but it is optimal for generating spikes. If I can churn out 600 dmg in one second, and drop a mob in 3, why would you need AoE?

K. I just don't really see the appeal of a PBS/ZS spike build over a Pene/Sunder spike build. While the former has higher spike damage, it sacrifices some efficiency with the lower range and will only work especially well when fighting very small groups due to the lack of energy management.

And Prepshot builds give extended DPS in the form of spikes.

Quote:

What practically works is more often better than what we can idealize on paper. For example, the Master of Damage is unable to track real world issues like running to mobs. Between each fight, a non-ranged melee will have to spend several seconds running to engage each monster. After they kill one, they have to run to another. If you have a 20 second engagement, this could easily be 5 seconds total. If you are averaging 200 dps over 20 seconds on the MoD, which is 4,000 dmg, go ahead and subtract 3,000 from that since you spent 5 seconds running around. Now, total DPS drops to 150.

A ranger does not have that problem because of the bow. As soon as I spike a monster down, I can just tab over to the next one and begin the next spike chain. Rinse and repeat from there.

They do have that problem with PBS (not as much as a melee, of course), even with a longbow or flatbow. Most notably when facing large groups.

With a full-range build, you can just sit down, go seige mode, and spike down anything on the field.

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As for energy concerns, go Mesmer secondary and use Ether Signet or Ether Lord.

Ether Signet kind of works, but its recharge is too long to be of any real use and I just don't find its effects beneficial enough to earn a place on my bar. Also, I like to bring SY when H/Hing.

Ether Lord, on the other hand, is completely out of the question. Losing all energy, 2 second cast, 5 expertise-ignoring energy, and, at 12 inspiration (which you shouldn't even be close to, so this is the best possible scenario) it'll only net you 9 energy in return. And that's only if it lasts the full nine seconds, which it almost never will because... you know... it's PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It doesn't in actual use, so 'will have' is not an issue. Being able to take down a target fast and at range is a plus.

Being able to take down several targets per mob at a further range is a bigger plus.

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Without teammates balling foes up, Barrage - and any short range AoE - is not so great, in HM critters tend to move a lot.

Which happens to be a plus for bows, because you don't waste time chasing targets, but with the Master of Damage rooted to his spot you'll never be able to get numbers on that effect.

Yea, I'm not one to advocate rangers running Barrage in general PvE. I'm just sayin', if you have to go AoE, that's probably your best option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

After reading this all for a long time I'll add my poor opinion.
It's true that bow skills are not so great - you all proved decent examples of effective builds but in my opinion they can never be as much powerful as other weapons skills.
But I still consider the bow a great weapon. As the ones before me said, staying at far range, switching targets asap (how I hate playing melees for these two things, even if they deal more dmg!!) is a great advantage. You don't have to run to targets, you can stay out of their attacks range, you don't lose time engaging but use it to deal dmg or whatever, you can greatly use terrain at your advantage and you have a perfect visual of the battle in its whole, from your comfortable point of view. And you can kill certain foes without them even noticing it.

That seems to be the consensus that we've reached.

Xiaquin · Jun 20, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

It's true that bow skills are not so great - you all proved decent examples of effective builds but in my opinion they can never be as much powerful as other weapons skills.

Of course they won't outclass a scythe or daggers, that wasn't what we bow defenders were trying to say. We're simply beating back the thread title that bows are "useless", when clearly we've proved they are not, and as you agree, hold some advantages over melee.

As for BUH that I think others are discussing, I've never seen it gain benefit from summoned creatures health <50%. I've walked right up to minions that are nearly dead and used it to no benefit, thus why it didn't appear on my bar when I went to test earlier; I have no use for it.

maxxfury · Jun 20, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

As for BUH that I think others are discussing, I've never seen it gain benefit from summoned creatures health <50%. I've walked right up to minions that are nearly dead and used it to no benefit, thus why it didn't appear on my bar when I went to test earlier; I have no use for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

I don't use ERs much, but from what I've seen, they're usually jumping around from < to > 50% quite often, so timing that seems difficult.

And are you sure allied spirits count? The wiki says:

And spirits count as summoned creatures. If it's wrong, someone needs to fix that.

minions =/= spirits ^ easy to test and prove...
Take a spirit master bar with buh into isle of nameless, and plant your spirits in the "master of burning"s circle, wait for all your spirits to get under 50% health, and hit buh, and see just how long it takes buh to run out

and it USED to say, minions dont count, but spirits DO affect boosted duration...but slacker on there changed it and other slackers never reverted them.

so someone needs to fix it xD

Amy Awien · Jun 20, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

and it USED to say, minions dont count, but spirits DO affect boosted duration...but slacker on there changed it and other slackers never reverted them.

so someone needs to fix it xD

Having it trigger on minions would make it maxx awesome. Interesting that it might work on spirits, I'll figure out a way to drain some spirit's health then and test it.

And, well, it's a wiki so go ahead and change it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Actually I said it was bad in WiK because everything has nonridiculous armor (foes have the same armor in NM and HM there), so its armor-ignoring properties are less beneficial.

That would be odd, everything in GW has AL = C + 3*Level with C depending on class, so why would they've changed it for WiK creatures?

Chthon · Jun 20, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That would be odd, everything in GW has AL = C + 3*Level with C depending on class, so why would they've changed it for WiK creatures?

Because they realize that stat-pumping the monsters is a terrible way to generate difficulty and they've made a conscious decision to try something else with WiK -- decent, randomized builds on monsters?

I don't know IF a-net did exempt the WiK monsters from the general formula, but they certainly have a good reason to.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 20, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I just tested BuH at the student of burning, and sure enough it works. I used SoS and had it running for at least 30 seconds.

Fay Vert · Jun 20, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

So what are we saying? Bows are useless but PvE skills rock?

I think we all knew that.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 20, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe bows are just fine and highly underrated. Peak DPS for SoS is ~150, and as several have already showed, bows can compete with that DPS. Plus, you have control over who you attack unlike with spirits.

Fay Vert · Jun 20, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Can you solo ecto farm with a bow build?

maxxfury · Jun 20, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Can you solo ecto farm with a bow build?

I couldnt tank a crap load of foes, cast a r14+ splinter & arage on all my phys, ball stuff up safely, maintain soh and lay down a cheap mobile meatshield for my squishies either

Drege_Icebow · Jun 20, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Can you solo ecto farm with a bow build?

Nope, but why solo ecto farm when you could go with a physway group and net more ecto and loot?

Fay Vert · Jun 21, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Your sort of missing the point

It was you comparing bow damage to spirits!

Xiaquin · Jun 21, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Can you solo ecto farm with a bow build?

I really wish I had heard this in-game, there is the perfect thread I would submit this to.

I guess anything that can't farm ecto should just be removed from the game.

maxxfury · Jun 21, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I really wish I had heard this in-game, there is the perfect thread I would submit this to.

I guess anything that can't farm ecto should just be removed from the game.

Its the overall comparison, not just the fact it cant solo uw...lol

ill assume a general sos bar vs one of the much loved turret rangers everyone loves...

the ranger does straight up single target dps, and to get that levle of dps it has to devote its ENTIRE bar to just dps... where as the rit spirt master does similar/more dps, has a meat shield or movable spirits, can buff its phys with splinter weapons and arage, can also spec for soh to further buff physicals, can increase knock down durations, blind ect

Rit does more than one trick, and it does that as well if not better than the ranger as well as a crap load of utility, safety and team synergy.

But i guess that is more to do with the fact rits got a crazy heavy buff..and the ranger is about the same as it has been for years.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 21, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Your sort of missing the point

It was you comparing bow damage to spirits!

As you so eloquently said, it is about comparing bow damage to spirits, not about comparing what a bow can farm to what a spirit can farm.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 21, 2010, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

the ranger does straight up single target dps, and to get that levle of dps it has to devote its ENTIRE bar to just dps... where as the rit spirt master does similar/more dps, has a meat shield or movable spirits, can buff its phys with splinter weapons and arage, can also spec for soh to further buff physicals, can increase knock down durations, blind ect

Rit does more than one trick, and it does that as well if not better than the ranger as well as a crap load of utility, safety and team synergy.

But i guess that is more to do with the fact rits got a crazy heavy buff..and the ranger is about the same as it has been for years.

It is true that Rit's are a great utility class, but we are comparing apples to oranges. I never meant to compare Rangers to Rits. What I was trying to do was compare SoS DPS for rangers, vs Spike DPS for rangers. Rit's have their own job to do, just as Rangers.

The point of this thread is to provide a discussion on whether the bow is useless in PVE, and I provides evidence and arguments that I believe show that it isn't. Sure, rangers could use a good tweak, but bows have their place in GW.

Xiaquin · Jun 21, 2010, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Its the overall comparison, not just the fact it cant solo uw...lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Rit does more than one trick

This is going way off topic. The OP feels bows are "useless", can't put out good enough damage, and that interrupting/conditions in HM are "useless". If he or she came along with me today for Grand Court of Sebelkeh, I was dazing and interrupting targets, such as Torment Claws.

This isn't about what other professions can provide that a bow ranger can't, it's about the role of a bow, and DPS is simply not the only thing it can do well. That argument tells me the player hasn't played one long enough to learn a new "trick".

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

But i guess that is more to do with the fact rits got a crazy heavy buff..and the ranger is about the same as it has been for years.

There ya go. But of course, if you are some people, trying to buff them is unacceptable, since buffs != balance. Rits are ok to godly buff though..